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1 Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:37 am

rosco 357


Veteran
MY Words: i just paste em, this should be fun and well written i could not resist, lol
its a couple months old but what the hell,

Palin's Red Menace

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, August 18, 2009
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/08/17/ST2009081702391.html?sid=ST2009081702391

Try this on for size: Palinism. What is it? It is an updated version of McCarthyism, which takes its name from the late Sen. Joseph McCarthy, the Wisconsin liar, demagogue and drunk, and means, according to Wikipedia, "reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries." As far as we know, Sarah Palin is not a drunk.

But she certainly shares McCarthy's other attributes -- and this one as well: the ability to drive the debate. In McCarthy's day, it was anti-communism coupled with national security, and it hardly mattered that he frequently did not have his facts straight. He got huge amounts of attention anyway.

With Palin, the subject is health care, which in many ways is the Red Menace of our day and lends itself to a kind of political pornography. For sheer disregard of the facts, her statement about President Obama's "death panel" has to rank with McCarthy's announcement that "I have here in my hand a list of 205" (or 57 or 72 or whatever) names of communists in the State Department. They were both false -- McCarthy's by commission, Palin's probably by omission. She rarely knows her facts.

The most depressing aspects of McCarthy's career were not just the excesses of the man himself but the refusal of others -- mainly his fellow Republicans -- to either rein him in or defend his victims. Now we are seeing something similar with Palin. Say what you will about any of the health-care proposals, not one of them suggests a "death panel" empowered to withhold medical services from the aged or those with disabilities. To suggest that one exists is reprehensible. To state it outright is either boldly demagogic or just plain loopy.

Yet, you can beat the bushes to a fine powder and find only two Republicans of note -- Sens. Johnny Isakson and Lisa Murkowski -- who had the courage or the decency to tell Palin that she doesn't know what she's talking about. Certainly, this was not the case with Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker, who in fact virtually seconded Palin's charge. This is not just because Gingrich himself can be casual with the facts but also because his urge to be politically expedient often overwhelms his convictions.

Something similar could be said about Sen. Charles Grassley, a key Senate Republican on health care. He mouthed a limp echo of Palin's lie and then boldly looked the other way. Sadly, the list of the meek includes Palin's Geppetto, Sen. John McCain, who fashioned her out of political desperation and has yet to whittle her down to size. In an update of the folk tale, I'd like to think that whenever he praises Palin, his own nose grows.

As with McCarthyism, Palinism is a product of its times. McCarthy exploited the public's fear of communism and communists. Not only were they abroad, but they were here in America -- spies, fellow travelers, pinkos, apologists, intellectuals and short, bespectacled minorities. It was their very ubiquity and invisibility that made them so dangerous.

Health-care reform provides Palin the same opportunity. The klutziness of Obama's effort -- people think they know what they can lose but have no idea of what they can gain -- again raises the specter of invisible forces that will take but not give, dictate but not listen, tax but not provide. But as is almost always the case with right-wing populists, the shooter has aimed at her own foot. Palin's "death panel" remarks either killed or helped kill the proposal to offer end-of-life counseling. The victims will be the poor, the uninformed and the ideologically blind who will find themselves unable to make a graceful exit. The affluent have their living wills and such. The poor have only their grief.

McCarthy's career was mercifully short. He made his famous speech in 1950 and was censured by the Senate four years later. By 1957, he was dead. His rise was a product of a now-antiquated newspaper culture, but his fall was abetted by the advent of TV. Americans looked and were appalled. He was finished.

Palin, as wholesome as McCarthy was not, is ready-made for television. Still, she has gone from a 57 percent favorable rating soon after McCain picked her as his running mate to a current 39 percent -- a negative landslide of justifiable proportions. Before she fades into fringedom, she will do one bad and one good thing -- hurt the very people she supposedly champions and expose the appalling opportunism of the Republican leaders.

I have in my hand a list of their names.

2 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:34 am

Guest


Guest
I will never understand why you hate this woman. The article, "fun" or not,is slanderous propaganda. We already have one person posting hate-crap.

3 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:34 am

gypsy


Moderator
it is odd that hate is mentioned,when so much of that is spewed by those who actually do this,maybe a closer look(@@) would be facts sometimes are overlooked by those who are flawed with the ability to hate~ an the article put here about palin (<) lies told by this person out of ignorance, not knowledgeable or just pure meanness, I don't know , will not judge that ,I saw no hate in this article, just facts

4 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:31 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
meemoon wrote:I will never understand why you hate this woman. The article, "fun" or not,is slanderous propaganda. We already have one person posting hate-crap.

i dont hate this person, i just found the article well written,and cleaver,, i have no feelings about her either way, i post on both sides, any post i find interesting, this is not a court of law, lighten up marc. nothing we post changes one thing. its not personal, take care,

5 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:45 pm

Guest


Guest
rosco 357 wrote:
meemoon wrote:I will never understand why you hate this woman. The article, "fun" or not,is slanderous propaganda. We already have one person posting hate-crap.

i dont hate this person, i just found the article well written,and cleaver,, i have no feelings about her either way, i post on both sides, any post i find interesting, this is not a court of law, lighten up marc. nothing we post changes one thing. its not personal, take care,
If I get any lighter, I'll float off the ground. Post as you wish,but after 8 years of hearing false,erroneous, slanderous, and gratuitous comments about GW, I find the idea of hearing more of such about Palin (a politically insignificant actor in the grand scheme of things) DREARY. Tell ya what, I'll assume any posts you put up about Palin will be hate-crap so I just wont read them.

6 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:40 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
meemoon wrote: If I get any lighter, I'll float off the ground. Post as you wish,but after 8 years of hearing false,erroneous, slanderous, and gratuitous comments about GW, I find the idea of hearing more of such about Palin (a politically insignificant actor in the grand scheme of things) DREARY. Tell ya what, I'll assume any posts you put up about Palin will be hate-crap so I just wont read them.

hi mark where we disagree is the propaganda is coming from the Palin side,u tie in what was said about bush ,that marc is irrelevant.why do u tie fact to hate, there is no hate,, do u not want to read because ur scared of the facts??? i will post this one more time, there is no death panels, never was, ur wrong, so here is what political facts investigated, i have posted it before but will again incase u forgot.. as follows, why u believe this crap is beyond me,, there was another time the republicans changed a title to scare ppl , the estate tax, that ppl wanted to raise taxes on, that kicks in at an estates i think of 650,000 bucks when it goes to the kids, or whoever, , they said hey lets call it a "death tax", that will scare ppl, i had read the article when this all happened many years ago, but here is the death panel investigation, again, its not true, never was, i will not post on it again, i vote republican but will not disregard the facts..

The Truth-O-Meter Says:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/10/sarah-palin/sarah-palin-barack-obama-death-panel/

Palin
Seniors and the disabled "will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."

Sarah Palin on Friday, August 7th, 2009 in a message posted on Facebook
Sarah Palin falsely claims Barack Obama runs a 'death panel'
Pants on Fire!

Sarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska, urged her supporters to oppose Democratic plans for health care reform on her Facebook page.

"As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!" wrote Palin in a note posted Aug. 7, 2009.

She said that the Democrats plan to reduce health care costs by simply refusing to pay for care.

"And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."

We agree with Palin that such a system would be evil. But it's definitely not what President Barack Obama or any other Democrat has proposed.

We have read all 1,000-plus pages of the Democratic bill and examined versions in various committees. There is no panel in any version of the health care bills in Congress that judges a person's "level of productivity in society" to determine whether they are "worthy" of health care.

Palin's claim sounds a little like another statement making the rounds, which says that health care reform would mandate counseling for seniors on how to end their lives sooner. We rated this claim Pants on Fire! The truth is that the health bill allows Medicare, for the first time, to pay for doctors' appointments for patients to discuss living wills and other end-of-life issues with their physicians. These types of appointments are completely optional, and AARP supports the measure.

Palin also may have also jumped to conclusions about the Obama administration's efforts to promote comparative effectiveness research. Such research has nothing to do with evaluating patients for "worthiness." Rather, comparative effectiveness research finds out which treatments work better than others.

The health reform bill being considered in the House of Representatives says that a Comparative Effectiveness Research Center shall "conduct, support, and synthesize research" that looks at "outcomes, effectiveness, and appropriateness of health care services and procedures in order to identify the manner in which diseases, disorders, and other health conditions can most effectively and appropriately be prevented, diagnosed, treated, and managed clinically."

The idea here, which Obama and his budget director Peter Orszag have discussed many times, is to make it easier for doctors, health care workers, insurance companies and patients to find out which treatments are the most effective, as determined by clinical studies and other research.

Obama has said he believes a comparative effectiveness commission should advise health care workers, not require them to follow certain treatments.

"I actually think that most doctors want to do right by their patients. And if they’ve got good information, I think they will act on that good information," Obama said during an interview with the New York Times on April 28, 2009.

He also specifically addressed end-of-life care for seniors, discussing the last week of his grandmother's life in 2008, and how her family and doctors decided on treatment for her.

"It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels," Obama said. "And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now."

And in fact, the House bill states in the section creating the Comparative Effectiveness Research Center and an oversight commission, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the Commission or the Center to mandate coverage, reimbursement, or other policies for any public or private payer." In other words, comparative effectiveness research will tell you whether treatment A is better than treatment B. But the bill as written won't mandate which treatment doctors and patients have to select.

Palin's statement seems extreme, but other Republicans, like Newt Gingrich, are backing her up. "You're asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there clearly are people in America who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards," Gingrich said in an interview on This Week with George Stephanopolous on Aug. 9, 2009.

We've looked at the inflammatory claims that the health care bill encourages euthanasia. It doesn't. There's certainly no "death board" that determines the worthiness of individuals to receive care. Conservatives might make a case that Palin is justified in fearing that the current reform could one day morph into such a board.

But that's not what Palin said. She said that the Democratic plan will ration care and "my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care." Palin's statement sounds more like a science fiction movie (Soylent Green, anyone?) than part of an actual bill before Congress. We rate her statement Pants on Fire!

hence Palin lied take care

7 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:47 pm

SSC


Admin
What would one call the review board that will decide if you need extended care that requires an out of state medical trip ??? Obama's words THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN IN THE SAND...who will decide if you are worthy of saving or to much of a burden on the medical system...Some one somewhere will play God with your future...

8 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:26 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
SSC wrote:What would one call the review board that will decide if you need extended care that requires an out of state medical trip ??? Obama's words THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN IN THE SAND...who will decide if you are worthy of saving or to much of a burden on the medical system...Some one somewhere will play God with your future...

, i would imagine that my private insurance company does that now i know they tell u to use in network drs and hospitals, or the amount they pay is not much,,,, but with birmingham having such hugh medical facilities, and one of the top heart hospitals in UAB that ppl come here from other parts of the state,, I dont ever see me going anywhere, but i think the hospital i use has everything i would ever need,its big, it also has a good heart surgery facility , , its where my mom had her bypass, and we have several more,,but i can uses any of them here, we have so many big hospitals they have put a stop on building anymore, as it may jeopardize the financial health of the others, i never have know of a person having to leave the state, i am sure we have all the cancer treatment one would ever need at several hospitals.my dr and specialist i use and have used, are in the professional building attached to the hospital i like to use, but there is another hospital my family uses that we like to have the babys in, it actually is where i was born and my kids were born, but its ultra modern now and my cousin has been a charge nurse in charge of the 3rd shift for many years there,,, they both have womens health centers,but i imagine all the other hospitals here have the same thing,there are some hospitals here i have never set foot in, but i guess we will just see what will happen as the time is growing more near, nothing may not pass, now what is to be will be, take care,

9 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:51 pm

SSC


Admin
As long as you keep your job you will be covered except should your company opt out and pay the penalty as opposed to the coverage, this has been left open as an option for many businesses.
Down the road we will all be in trouble , a shortage of Dr. will bring speedy and through health care to a screeching halt.

10 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:14 am

Guest


Guest
I am afraid of NOTHING. I am sick of all the anti-Palin blogging. Since you have re-posted the same blog stuff, yet again, I will summarize what I have posted before: 1) All insurers, all 1800 of them, have "death panels". No, patients do not "stand before them" but they make life and death decisions and if they decide you will be denied life saving treatment, YOU___WILL___DIE. What is so damn hard about understanding THAT? I wrote that before,so why repeat it back to me as if I didn't know that already? 2) AS I SAID BEFORE, Palin's use of the term "death panel" may have been inelegant,but it was NOT a lie. With single payer insurance, the plan at the time, only the GOVERNMENT would make those decisions. Can you sue the government? NO! Will there be appeal available? NO! Can an insurance co. be sued if they make a bad decision? YES! Can you appeal what you believe to be a bad decision? YES! 3) The distinction between a panel of insurance company doctors, answerable in civil court for their actions, and an all-powerful government "death panel" are clear to me,if not to you.

11 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:03 am

rosco 357


Veteran
well touchy touchy are we...well i disagree with u , its ur opinion and ur entitled to it, the ppl that do the research dont agree with u, but im done with this, really there is no need to discuss it, it will change until and if something passes the final hurdle when they combine laws in the conference committee if in fact it gets there,. so lets wait and see how and if that goes and turns out.. take care, i bow at palins feet. lmao..

12 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:40 am

Guest


Guest
rosco 357 wrote:well touchy touchy are we...well i disagree with u , its ur opinion and ur entitled to it, the ppl that do the research dont agree with u, but im done with this, really there is no need to discuss it, it will change until and if something passes the final hurdle when they combine laws in the conference committee if in fact it gets there,. so lets wait and see how and if that goes and turns out.. take care, i bow at palins feet. lmao..
That ain't fair. You disagree with my "opinions". OK, what part of my last post was just "opinion" and not the truth? Is it just an "opinion" that insurance companies make life and death decisions? Or is it an obvious truth that they do? Which? Is it just an opinion that, UNDER A GOVERNMENT INSURANCE PROGRAM, like Medicare, that life and death decisions will be made by government officials? If my "opinion" that that they will is incorrect and contradicts the "people who do the research", what,pray tell, is THEIR opinion? Who, according to the experts, will make these decisions? Is it just my "opinion" that some decision making group will be established to make those life or death decisions or will NOBODY make those decisions? Is it your view that the government will provide unlimited treatment regardless of cost or efficacy? These questions are independant of what the final bill reads like. Please answer the question: As SSC asked and I ask now, WHAT DO YOU CALL A PANEL THAT MAKES LIFE AND DEATH DECISIONS? I don't like the term "death panel" because these decision making bodies also make decisions that preserve and extend life,but Palin was NOT lying when she called these decision making groups "death panels", she was just being abrasive and provocative. Someone is either a liar or is not. It is NOT a matter of "opinion". She either lied or she didn't. The blog article expressed an OPINION. It is NOT a fact that Palin lied and it is improper to slur that woman's character if you can't point to a proven lie. The srticle was slanderous and improper.

13 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:06 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
i just posted an article by Richard Cohen of the washington post,who is a well know new paper writer, which i thought was wrote in a cleverer way. i have been on a jury where a dr was sued, i know all that, u cant sue the gov. but they dont have the votes for a government option. anyway, most of the things discussed will not be in any final bill i dont believe. i think the family and the dr will make the decision. i know an insurance co will not let a person be a vegetable forever nor would most all familys, but this will be my last post on this, take care,

14 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:56 pm

Guest


Guest
Roscoe wrote: "....this will be my last post on this, take care" /// I won't make that promise about the subject but this thread got it all said, eh?

15 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:40 am

Guest


Guest
The REAL Sarah Palin? According to two reporters embedded with the Palin campaign (one of whom is a former CBS reporter) Palin was grossly misrepresented by the press. One facet of the ugliness was her wardrobe costs. Palin was dismayed by the costs of the clothes that were being bought for her. So irritated, that campaign aides were ordered to take the price tags off so she wouldn't know how expenssive they were. This is just one little thing but illustrative of why I am sick and tired of hearing or reading anti-Palin propaganda. It's stupid, ungentlemanly and not funny. (The propaganda, "Scoe, not you) Here's another scenario: Bush flew down to Miss after Katrina and appeared at a photo op with Brown (Fema) Nagin, the Gov of Miss and the gov of LA. The mayor and the two govs had just spoken and grandly praised Brown for the great job FEMA had done and was doing. So when Bush came to the mic after that, was he supposed to say "Oh, hell no, FEMA is screwing up royally"??? Of course not. Why should he insult the 3 pols in front of him? Would you have? Instead, Bush said "yer doing a great job, Brownie" and THAT is what got repeated ad nauseum by the Bush hating press. And,no, it is NOT politics as usual. I've been around a long time and I'm a news junkie. There has been and remains an hysterical hatred of conservatives by the media that is unprecedented. It's infuriating to think that nearly ALL the major broadcast news orgs are trying to brainwash me instead of just reporting the goddamn news.

16 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:49 am

gypsy


Moderator
hence Palin lied take care/// I agree with this partial post
many, many lies she told,an still telling them/the woman is a whacko/sexy wink wink folksy umm matter of opinion~ I know Tyler! TEASING!! NOT~~

17 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:52 am

SSC


Admin
You are refering to Nagin, Blanco(ex LA.Gov.) Barbour ( Miss. Gov ) I was close to that little photo slop job. Bush had just landed and wasn't even briefed properly when the exchange took place..Brown was a fucking idiot he should have lived in the projects with the rats and crack dealers and rotting bodies..Bush got blind sided bad with wrong info..
I saw the review of the book you are refering to Moon, it clears up alot of Dem bullshit about Palin...The Dems and some media will ride a horse in the ground for lack of intelligent things to talk about..Only a dumbass would continue to brow beat Palin.. She is coming out on top just like Fox thanks to the publicity and the whiners are to damn stupid to realize this...

18 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:18 am

gypsy


Moderator
it is strange//that some republicans speak of hatred?

when all they do is pick on all that Obama has accomplished,.

still more to do/but a start
also strange is the Repubs/want him to fail?

after 8 years of failure/handing a full plate to this administration//I would love the answer to this~or opinion will do~

19 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:37 am

SSC


Admin
Once again Moon it is obvious some people have no concept of the words ON IGNORE...

20 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:39 am

Guest


Guest
SSC wrote:Once again Moon it is obvious some people have no concept of the words ON IGNORE...
We must have patience with illiterates and the mentally challenged. Perhaps Palin's "death panel" comments referred to this: According to Dr. David Janda, MD, orthoprdaedic surgeon, 30 years, and author of "The Awakening Of A Surgeon", the stimulus bill established the "Federal Co-ordinating Counci For Competitive Effectiveness Research". Obama has already appointed all 15 members and it is now functioning. This board is expanded under HR 3200 and will be carried through in a final bill since it is already established,up and running, and making decisions now for Medicare and Medicaid patients. This board is to establish treatment protocals and those are to be applied "at the point of treatment" (hospitals, doctors' offices,clinics) These governrnent functionaries are making and will continue to make life and death decisions based on perceived "effectiveness" and will be applied to all who receive government funded healthcare. Dr. Janda calls this a "rationing board". Palin calls it a "death panel". I call it unethical and wrong and typical of what is being hidden from the public. Someone prove me wrong.

21 P.S. on Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:19 am

Guest


Guest
"She is coming out on top just like Fox thanks to the publicity and the whiners are to damn stupid to realize this..." /// Yep. Without the liberal fear and hysteria,she would be politically insignificant. She has benefitted,and will continue to benefit, from all the bashing. That got Bush re-elected in 2004, in my opinion. If Palin runs for and wins ANYTHING in 2010,there should be NO DOUBT who will be responsible.Seriously, I think the Dems may be in for a severe "whuppin'" in 2010. I don't KNOW that,of course,but they will ignore the public dissaffections at their own peril. As long as the Dems keep quacking the party line, a la Pelosi (a Victory!) we can't really know what they believe. Being a news junkie,I will be watching statements made by tangential political characters. To say that winning a House seat representing 100,000 people is more important than losing the governerships over 7 million is ludicrous.

22 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:50 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
well as a dumbass, lmao, and there is nothing wrong with what palin did, when she left her govenors job i think 17 months early,i think because of all the law suits, but nevermind that most were frivolous. she has come to the lower 48 and is putting her face out there. and joining in the larger political games.for reasons we will see, one for publicity for her book but she did endorse ppl in certain elections that were on last tuesday 11/3/09,, and by keeping her name out there, it makes her fair game in the political arena,,in new paper editorials etc. the way all politicians are ,, on both sides, its just politics, and politics to me is not a personnel thing. its all the games that both sides play, and thats all it is to me. to be a politician u have to be thick skinned.and as they say there is no bad publicity..,all this will wash out and will be interesting to watch. and i forget what was posted above , but i agree the 2010 elections as i have said weeks ago , will change the landscape..just as bill clintons mid term elections changed his landscape, take care,

23 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:48 pm

SSC


Admin
I saw the interview with Dr. Janda this morning and Moon you are 100% correct in your post, his disclosure of the panels already in action on Medicare and Medicaid were chilling to say the least..All behind closed doors, hidden from the very people it could mean life or death to..

24 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:53 am

Guest


Guest
Roscoe wrote: " she has come to the lower 48 and is putting her face out there..." SO WHAT?. Are you saying she demands that reporters place her mug on their rags' political pages or in front of their video cameras? Really??? She is NOT forcing reporters to give her publicity,is she? Sarah Palin, the celebrity, is a creature of the media. They HATE her politics, as proven by their constant misrepresentations of her words and acts during the last elections. They LOVE to report in any negative way they can, who she is and what she says. Are they following McCain around? It amazes me how you seem to know her motivations for the things she has done and is doing now. You must personally know her. I met Sen. Jim DeMint once in 1987. I was stoned outta my gourd.

25 Re: Palin's Red Menace on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:19 am

rosco 357


Veteran
yep i dated palin she aint bad, lmao

26 Re: Palin's Red Menace Today at 9:41 am

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