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runawayhorses


Owner
The problem is they need more "details"

Your opinion is couched in C&P material, that's fine, and I appreciate you trying to add more to the topic, but quite frankly I thought we were having a conversation without interruptions from outside material (C&P) but that's fine, like I said do what makes you the most comfortable.

I don't agree with your hypotheses they have all the facts and details they need, as made testimony by the people asking the questions..

gypsy


Moderator
yes we were having a conversation, and i added my thoughts opinions, I don't see professionals questioning anything,like who are you referring to as professionals? i see the congress/senate stalling and creating confusion as they have done for the past 70 years on health care almost all of the new proposals have been rebuked through the past years` i don't see what the problem is~ not caring maybe? I think give us the same health care we pay for the politicians, to me that is a simple solution, right now we as senors are paying 700hundred a month for health care,even though medicare pays for most of our medical bills,we still have to maintain a private sector, to me that is unnecessary..

gypsy


Moderator
my understanding was the people and you were needing more details.. the congress has it to evaluate. my point.what is their problem? they are professionals~or suppose to be LOL sorry if i misunderstood your questions

runawayhorses


Owner
gypsy wrote:my understanding was the people and you were needing more details.. the congress has it to evaluate. my point.what is their problem? they are professionals~or suppose to be LOL sorry if i misunderstood your questions
No the congress doesn't have it to evaluate, not all of it, that have unanswered questions still pending. Fact.

gypsy


Moderator
Ok,where is that fact, they don't have it all to evaluate?

runawayhorses


Owner
If you're not careful I'm going to wish you into cartoon land (The twilight zone movie)..lmao

The facts are people (congress) are asking questions and getting no definitive answers to help them evaluate the Health care plan efficiency and effectively. That's fact. Choose to ignore it all you want, but the fact remains they need more info and details to evaluate the entire system and make decisions. You choose to buy into everything Obama says without looking at the details, the people in congress need more than that, that need actual info and facts to evaluate correctly, they can't take a chance on a spur of the moment thought like you can, they have to be sure it will work, they want details and information and questions answered. You can afford to rely on someones word (Obama) but they need facts and details. You don't have enough info to make a rational decision, therefore what you think is not important, only the people that make these decisions are important, and they need to know the answers.

gypsy


Moderator
oh My,I see. LMAO no i do not buy into everything obama says, sorry ur wrong on that.
ok my problem with this is if they don't have all the facts ,or full bill concept how does one expect them to vote much less pass it~ I think that is phoo phoo~ on that concept from congress/senate..I have not seen anything to warrant that point, but hey it could be,I know as a laymen I have not the answers, just bringing thought, mine and C/p into play~I do know one hing they need to get off their asses and do something, or the complete economy and overall improvement of our country is lost.

runawayhorses


Owner
Here's the outline of Gypsy's argument as I see it: She seems to think Obama has said all he can about his Health Care plan and there are no more facts that can be disclosed, I say there are ALWAYS more facts that can be disclosed by asking the right questions, more details to complete someones analogy. Apparently some people in congress and other people as not satisfied and have more questions.

I don't know why anyone would get on the defensive from "Obama's team" when everyone is expecting him to answer all questions, no one is saying he won't or doesn't have the answers, they are just saying they need more info and would he please reply and show us what we need to know. Why act as if we think he's wrong when we are not saying he is? They just have more questions and details that need to be considered. Why is that a problem??

rosco 357


Veteran
runawayhorses wrote:
gypsy wrote:my understanding was the people and you were needing more details.. the congress has it to evaluate. my point.what is their problem? they are professionals~or suppose to be LOL sorry if i misunderstood your questions
No the congress doesn't have it to evaluate, not all of it, that have unanswered questions still pending. Fact.

ok i did not see the president but he is on now, and i heard will be on each day,he is only cheerleading and not giving real details only generalities, one must have to agree with tyler on what will actually be in the final bill no one knows, , , for one its way to early in the process to paste long paste, AS ALWAYS THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS, and we are no where close to that, he does not have the votes to pass this, it is in many committees in the house and senate, the blue dog democrats he as last i heard he does not have as a yes vote. he has more problems with dems. that he does republicans, he can pass a bill with only dems but he has not all the dems behind him. there are many conservative dems that will have to have things there way to get there vote..he is in a hurry because he knows the longer it goes on the more ppl will grow scared of how it will effect their pocketbook, some fear tactics will explode on ur tv when they go on august recess,, and some ppl cant see through what is bunk and what is real in the tactics that will be used. for one a bill will have to be voted on in the house, then one in the senate, if they do pass which is very questionable, then it goes to conference,and they change it so a final bill could be voted on.then and then only will we know the details of a bill.. i give obama credit to his effort. harry reid said this is not going to happen before the august recess, they will be back sometimes in september, during that time look for scare tactics on tv. i think a health bill passing ever is in question . and may never happen just like clinton could not get it done. if any dem even one in the senate will not vote on it, its dead. i just heard on tv, the blue dog dems, are not with him yet.. ppl do not know the details as there are no details. things in the bill will change to gain votes, there is heated arguments between the new democrates and the veteran dems, some dems come from conservative parts of a state. the longer it goes on the harder it will be and it will die on the vine, but the final details are not there.. because it will change multiple times. but if he looses this it will be a terrible blow to his presidency as he was over heard saying ,, and reported, this will be close , but i will be surprised if any bill passes, its been reported as ssc said many post back there are not enough milllionaires to pay for this. and also the scare tactics have regular ppl scared they will be taxed on this.anyway, as of now we dont have the last details of a bill, to judge. mainly because things will be changed to gain mainly the new and blue dog democrates.. u know my view as i have stated, if i loose my job or my place shuts down as there is talk of that at work , i would like to have something to get on beside temporary cobra.im not against me being able to get on something like medicare, my mom medicare was great, but as tyler said i think , we dont know the details, and there will not be a vote on this till the fall or next year as is being reported on tv now.. if i had to bet, i would bet nothing ever passes, obama know this is why he is working so hard. but he is loosing support, as each day passes. take care

gypsy


Moderator
runawayhorses wrote:Here's the outline of Gypsy's argument as I see it: She seems to think Obama has said all he can about this Health Care plan and there are no more facts that can be disclosed, I say there are ALWAYS more facts that can be disclosed by asking the right questions, more details to complete someones analogy. Apparently some people in congress and other people as not satisfied and have more questions.

I don't know why anyone would get on the defensive from "Obama's team" when everyone is expecting him to answer all questions, no one is saying he won't or doesn't have the answers, they are just saying they need more info and would he please reply and show us what we need to know. Why act as if we think he's wrong when we are not saying he is? They just have more questions and details that need to be considered. Why is that a problem??
no I don't think he has said all he can say,I think more work needs done not just by Obama but by the congress, if this has been going on for decades we can't just blame the presidents ofeach era, I am putting biggest blame on the house/senate congress~I am not acting that anyone is wrong,I do think some politicians are acting this way,
I also am going to reply to rosco, on to long articles. it does give some insight to the issue.. I am saying something needs to be done~ if it isn't then W can't say the presidents(notice Presidents) haven't tried, the health care has not been improved since Truman~ that is a mighty long time.

gypsy


Moderator
ok so what are the questions? don't hear/read any senators or Representatives asking any? I would like to read/hear these questions~
so Tyler you say it is in preliminary stage? Rosco how can there be a bill if there is no details?

runawayhorses


Owner
gypsy wrote:ok so what are the questions? don't hear/read any senators or Representatives asking any? I would like to read/hear these questions~
so Tyler you say it is in preliminary stage? Rosco how can there be a bill if there is no details?
How would I know what the questions are?? They are the ones asking the questions! All I know is they are asking questions that are not being answered. Most likely becuase they don't have an answer.

The Bill is not complete, like I said, there are still unanswered questions. I don't know what they are, but the experts do.

gypsy


Moderator
I guess my misconception was there had been a draft/bill introduced to be voted on, but as i have read farther, it is just a reform to be voted on,(first stages)?(I think)it is up to member of both parties in (senate/ House)to write a reform bill,or to combine efforts to introduce one>

SSC


Admin
To start with money is a huge issue, who is paying for this new plan. Obama is just pushing to pass it , no clear details on funding and impact. It won't happen this session even if they do try to hold them from leaving for their break and Obama is realizing this. He just has a campaign promise to fulfill , this is a shady health care plan not well thought out and could in the long run hurt instead of help. What is the price tag over a trillion and growing.

runawayhorses


Owner
SSC wrote:To start with money is a huge issue, who is paying for this new plan. Obama is just pushing to pass it , no clear details on funding and impact. It won't happen this session even if they do try to hold them from leaving for their break and Obama is realizing this. He just has a campaign promise to fulfill , this is a shady health care plan not well thought out and could in the long run hurt instead of help. What is the price tag over a trillion and growing.
I agree on him trying to fulfill a campaign promise. The actual plan I don't know or have any predictions on if it will work or ever come into play (be passed), but I hope something will happen so everyone can have health care.

This county is in such bad shape its depressing. The only thing we have going is our military and science tech (NASA, Computers) superiority, our military its still the most powerful in the world, but everything else is falling apart it seems. I hate it.

rosco 357


Veteran
i heard on the news or a show, that Obama is in like the movie " A perfect storm" he wants to spend and do things like heath care, but he has a bad economy, and huge debt. from the stimulus packages, and ppl are not spending as much. its just a bad time to try to pass a bill such as this, actually unless it did today, there are committees that have not even passed there version of the bill, it had many committees that
are working on a bill, obama has no idea what the final bill will be like. there is no bill yet, but i have not read the news today,,,,

42 Emanuel: Changes To Health System Take Time on Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:51 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
ok i said to early for post, but here is one, lol

Emanuel: Changes To Health System Take Time

by April Fulton ,Ron Edmonds
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106946745

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel acknowledged that a final health care bill is unlikely before the August break. AP

Morning Edition, July 24, 2009 · The House of Representatives does plan to vote on health legislation before leaving for its August recess, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel told NPR.

Emerging from several hours of meetings Thursday with House leaders, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Emanuel told NPR's Steve Inskeep that "their intention is to go next week and she is working toward that goal."

Despite an earlier push by President Obama for Congress to complete its work on the legislation before the break, he and his chief of staff have acknowledged that a final product is more likely to be seen at the end of the year.

Still, setting the deadline for August was important, Emanuel said, because Congress "can use the summer months to basically work out and iron out differences."

Those differences include debates over thorny issues like taxing the wealthy to pay for expanding health coverage, whether to create a government plan that would compete for patients with private insurers, and what kind of role businesses should play, among other things.

"Having a deadline focuses the mind," he said.

Senate Inches Forward

On Thursday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid acknowledged what had become obvious in recent days — that the full Senate would not vote on health care in August.

"It's better to have a product based on quality and thoughtfulness rather than try to jam something through," Reid said.

But he said the Senate Finance Committee would produce a bill and work on it before the August recess begins.

Still, many members of Congress have raised concerns about leaving incomplete legislation unfinished over the summer to be picked apart.

Emanuel dismissed the idea that this would bring down the bills, noting that 14,000 people a day lose their health insurance.

"The public wants health care reform that fundamentally doesn't put the insurance companies in control of the process, which is where they fundamentally are," he said.

He also said lawmakers would welcome hearing from people in their districts about the issue. "Hearing from constituents will not be the same as hearing from the special interests," he said.

Political Pressure From All Sides

Emanuel shrugged off comments from Sen. Jim DeMint, a Republican from South Carolina, who said Wednesday that health care is Obama's "Waterloo." He also dismissed remarks Thursday by Sen. James Inhofe, a Republican from Oklahoma, that Republicans are plotting the bill's demise on a "week by week" basis.

"At least they're honest about their motivation. Their view about health care is about defeating President Obama," he said. "Politically, I actually appreciate what they said."

But tensions are also evident within the Democratic caucus as the Senate Finance Committee struggles to put together its version of the bill.

The administration's efforts to get and keep big health care interest groups on board has been worrying some Democrats in recent days. Hospitals, physicians, insurance companies and prescription drug industry groups have all pledged varying degrees of support for an overhaul.

Emanuel said it was important to keep the advocates who have been opposed to reform in the past on board, but "not at all costs. That has been a key part of this."

Fiscally conservative Democrats have also raised concerns about cost, but Emanuel urged the country to take a step back and think about the scale of what Congress is trying to accomplish.

"For 40 years, we've had a debate about health care that was solely about expanding coverage. For the first time, you have the dual goals of controlling costs and expanding coverage," he said.

"We're not just running it up on the credit card, which is how they did the prescription drug bill," he said, referring to the passage of a bill in 2003 under a Republican-controlled Congress that added a prescription drug benefit to Medicare.

"They charged it, which is a $900 billion charge," he said. "And nobody paid for it."

Emanuel sees giving more power to a commission already in place to advise Congress on how to hold down Medicare spending as key to keeping costs under control.

Fate Of The Overhaul

Inskeep asked Emanuel about the difficulties of holding together such a varied group of supporters and getting the new votes needed to pass legislation.

"I've seen places where people are trying to find a way to be a 'no,' and I've seen places where people are truly, earnestly trying to find a 'yes.' And I think we're in the process of people trying to find out how to get to a 'yes,' " he said.

At the end of the day, Emanuel expects a bill-signing ceremony.

"We will have a bill by the end of the year for the president to sign on health care that controls costs, expands coverage and provides choice," Emanuel said.

But he declined to predict how, exactly, the president and Congress would get there.

"I don't want to fast forward the movie; you're just going to have to watch the movie all the way through," he said.

rosco 357


Veteran
Democrats threaten floor vote to break impasse
Jul 24 12:04 PM US/Eastern
By ERICA WERNER
Associated Press Writer
my words, there is an update they added but its long so to see it click the url
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D99KTN781&show_article=1&catnum=0

WASHINGTON (AP) - A powerful House committee chairman is threatening to force a floor vote to break the impasse on health care overhaul.

Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman told The Associated Press negotiations with fiscally conservative Democrats on his panel cannot go on "interminably" because they would "empower" Republicans and allow the minority party to take control of the panel.

The California Democrat said Friday if he can't reach agreement with the conservatives, the health care bill would go straight to the floor, and not through his committee.

Two House panels have already passed legislation. Waxman is stymied because seven conservatives—who call themselves Blue Dog Democrats—are sticking together. Negotiations continued.

my word, i think in the total house numbers there are 52 blue dog dems i could be wrong, but as is said waxman has 7 on his commitee.

44 Common Sense May Sink ObamaCare on Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:25 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
Common Sense May Sink ObamaCare
MY WORDS:another commentary by peggy noonan , who has been around a long time and a thorn in many presidents side, i forgot when her last big story was in the news, it may have been the clinton sex scandal, but i really forget, but i know her when i see her,

Common Sense May Sink ObamaCare
It turns out the president misjudged the nation’s mood.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203517304574306533556532364.html

By PEGGY NOONAN

This is big, what’s happening. President Obama appears to have misstepped on a major initiative and defining issue. He has misjudged the nation’s mood, which itself is news: He rose from nothing to everything with the help of his fine-tuned antennae. Resistance to the Democratic health-care plans is in the air, showing up more now on YouTube than in the polls, but it will be in the polls soon enough. The president, in short, may be facing a real loss. This will be interesting in a number of ways and for a number of reasons, among them that we’ve never seen him publicly defeated before, because he hasn’t been. So we may be entering new territory, with new struggles shaped by new dynamics.

His news conference the other night was bad. He was filibustery and spinny and gave long and largely unfollowable answers that seemed aimed at limiting the number of questions asked and running out the clock. You don’t do that when you’re fully confident. Far more seriously, he didn’t seem to be telling the truth. We need to create a new national health-care program in order to cut down on government spending? Who would believe that? Would anybody?

The common wisdom the past week has been that whatever challenges health care faces, the president will at least get something because he has a Democratic House and Senate and they’re not going to let their guy die. He’ll get this or that, maybe not a new nationalized system but some things, and he’ll be able to declare some degree of victory.

And this makes sense. But after the news conference, I found myself wondering if he’d get anything.

I think the plan is being slowed and may well be stopped not by ideology, or even by philosophy in a strict sense, but by simple American common sense. I suspect voters, the past few weeks, have been giving themselves an internal Q-and-A that goes something like this:

Will whatever health care bill is produced by Congress increase the deficit? “Of course.” Will it mean tax increases? “Of course.” Will it mean new fees or fines? “Probably.” Can I afford it right now? “No, I’m already getting clobbered.” Will it make the marketplace freer and better? “Probably not.” Is our health care system in crisis? “Yeah, it has been for years.” Is it the most pressing crisis right now? “No, the economy is.” Will a health-care bill improve the economy? “I doubt it.”

The White House misread the national mood. The problem isn’t that they didn’t “bend the curve,” or didn’t sell it right. The problem is that the national mood has changed since the president was elected. Back then the mood was “change is for the good.” But that altered as the full implications of the financial crash seeped in. The crash gave everyone a diminished sense of their own margin for error. It gave them a diminished sense of their country’s margin for error. Americans are not in a chance-taking mood. They’re not in a spending mood, not after the unprecedented spending of the past year, from the end of the Bush era through the first six months of Obama. Here the Congressional Budget Office report that a health care bill would not save money but would instead cost more than a trillion dollars in the next decade was decisive. People say bureaucrats never do anything. The bureaucrats of CBO might have killed health care.
More Peggy Noonan

The final bill, with all its complexities, will probably be huge, a thousand pages or so. Americans don’t fear the devil’s in the details, they fear hell is. Do they want the same people running health care who gave us the Department of Motor Vehicles, the post office and the invasion of Iraq?

Let me throw forward three other things that I suspect lessen , or will lessen, support for full health-care reform, two of them not quantifiable.

The first has to do with the doctors throughout the country who give patients a break, who quietly underbill someone they know is in trouble, or don’t charge for their services. Also the emergency rooms that provide excellent service for the uninsured in medical crisis. People don’t talk about this much because they’re afraid if they do they’ll lose it, that some government genius will come along and make it illegal for a doctor not to charge or a hospital to fudge around, with mercy, in its billing. People are afraid of losing the parts of the system that sometimes work—the unquantifiable parts, the human parts.

Second, and this is big, some of the bills being worked on in Congress will allow for or mandate taxpayer funding of abortion. Speaking only and narrowly in political terms, this is so ignorant as to be astounding. A good portion of the support for national health care comes from a sort of European Christian Democrat spirit of community, of “We are all in this together.” This spirit potentially unites Democrats, leftists, some Republicans and GOP populists, the politically unaffiliated and those of whatever view with low incomes. But putting abortion in the mix takes the Christian out of Christian Democrat. It breaks and jangles the coalition, telling those who believe abortion is evil that they not only have to accept its legality but now have to pay for it in a brand new plan, for which they’ll be more highly taxed. This is taking a knife to your own supporters.

The third point is largely unspoken but I suspect gives some people real pause. We are living in a time in which educated people who are at the top of American life feel they have the right to make very public criticisms of . . . let’s call it the private, pleasurable but health-related choices of others. They shame smokers and the overweight. Drinking will be next. Mr. Obama’s own choice for surgeon general has come under criticism as too heavy.

Only a generation ago such criticisms would have been considered rude and unacceptable. But they are part of the ugly, chafing price of having the government in something: Suddenly it can make big and very personal demands on you. Those who live in a way that isn’t sufficiently healthy “cost us money” and “drive up premiums.” Mr. Obama himself said something like it in his press conference, when he spoke of a person who might not buy health insurance. If he gets hit by a bus, “the rest of us have to pay for it.”

Under a national health-care plan we might be hearing that a lot. You don’t exercise, you smoke, you drink, you eat too much, and “the rest of us have to pay for it.”

It is a new opportunity for new class professionals (an old phrase that should make a comeback) to shame others, which appears to be one of their hobbies. (It may even be one of their addictions. Let’s stage an intervention.) Every time I hear Kathleen Sebelius talk about “transitioning” from “treating disease” to “preventing disease,” I start thinking of how they’ll use this as an excuse to judge, shame and intrude.

So this might be an unarticulated public fear: When everyone pays for the same health-care system, the overseers will feel more and more a right to tell you how to live, which simple joys are allowed and which are not.

Americans in the most personal, daily ways feel they are less free than they used to be. And they are right, they are less free.

Who wants more of that?

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