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1 As Bush Adviser, Rice Gave OK to Waterboard on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:22 am

SSC


Admin
As Bush Adviser, Rice Gave OK to Waterboard
As national security adviser in the Bush White House, Condoleezza Rice verbally OK'd the CIA's request to subject alleged Al Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah to waterboarding in July 2002.

AP
www.foxnews.com
Wednesday, April 22, 2009 WASHINGTON -- As national security adviser to former President George W. Bush, Condoleezza Rice verbally approved the CIA's request to subject alleged Al Qaeda terrorist Abu Zubaydah to waterboarding in July 2002, the earliest known decision by a Bush administration official to OK use of the simulated drowning technique.

Rice's role was detailed in a narrative released Wednesday by the Senate Intelligence Committee. It provides the most detailed timeline yet for how the CIA's harsh interrogation program was conceived and approved at the highest levels in the Bush White House.

The new timeline shows that Rice played a greater role than she admitted last fall in written testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The narrative also shows that dissenting legal views about the severe interrogation methods were brushed aside repeatedly.

The Intelligence Committee's timeline comes a day after the Senate Armed Services Committee released an exhaustive report detailing direct links between the CIA's harsh interrogation program and abuses of prisoners at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in Afghanistan and at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison.

Both revelations follow President Barack Obama's release of internal Bush administration legal memos that justified the use of severe methods by the CIA, a move that kicked up a firestorm from opposing sides of the ideological spectrum.

According to the new narrative, which compiles legal advice provided by the Bush administration to the CIA, Rice personally conveyed the administration's approval for waterboarding of Zubaydah, a so-called high-value detainee, to then-CIA Director George Tenet in July 2002.

Last fall, Rice acknowledged to the Senate Armed Services Committee only that she had attended meetings where the CIA interrogation request was discussed and asked for the attorney general to conduct a legal review. She said she did not recall details. Rice omitted her direct role in approving the program in her written statement to the committee.

A spokesman for Rice declined comment when reached Wednesday.

Days after Rice gave Tenet the nod, the Justice Department approved the use of waterboarding in a top secret Aug. 1 memo. Zubaydah underwent waterboarding at least 83 times in August 2002.

In the years that followed, according to the narrative issued Wednesday, there were numerous internal legal reviews of the program, suggesting government attorneys raised concerns that the harsh methods, particularly waterboarding, might violate federal laws against torture and the U.S. Constitution.

But Bush administration lawyers continued to validate the program. The CIA voluntarily dropped the use of waterboarding, which has a long history as a torture tactic, from its arsenal of techniques after 2005.

According to the two Senate reports, CIA lawyers first presented the plan to waterboard Zubaydah to White House lawyers in April 2002, a few weeks after his capture in Pakistan.

Tenet wrote in his memoir that CIA officers themselves originated the idea.

In May 2002, Rice, along with then-Attorney General John Ashcroft and White House counsel Alberto Gonzales met at the White House with the CIA to discuss the use of waterboarding.

The Armed Services Committee report says that six months earlier, in December 2001, the Pentagon's legal office already had made inquiries about the use of mock interrogation and detention tactics to a U.S. military training unit that schools armed forces personnel in how to endure harsh treatment. A former intelligence official said Wednesday the CIA officers also based their proposed harsh interrogations on the mock interrogation methods used by the unit.

He declined to be identified because the CIA had not authorized the disclosure of the information.
In July 2002, responding to a follow-up from the Pentagon general counsel's office, officials at the training unit, the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency, detailed their methods for the Pentagon. The list included waterboarding.

But the training unit warned that harsh physical techniques could backfire by making prisoners more resistant. They also cautioned about the reliability of information gleaned from the severe methods and warned that the public and political backlash could be "intolerable."

"A subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer or many answers in order to get the pain to stop," the training officials said in their memo.

Less than a week later, the Justice Department issued two legal opinions that sanctioned the CIA's harsh interrogation program. The memos appeared to draw deeply on the survival school data provided to the Pentagon to show that the CIA's methods would not cross the line into torture.

The opinion concluded that the harsh interrogation methods would be acceptable for use on terror detainees because the same techniques did not cause severe physical or mental pain to U.S. military students who were tested in the government's carefully controlled training program.

Several people from the survival program objected to the use of their mock interrogations in battlefield settings. In an October 2002 e-mail, a senior Army psychologist told personnel at Guantanamo Bay that the methods were inherently dangerous and students were sometimes injured, even in a controlled setting.

"The risk with real detainees is increased exponentially," he said.

Nevertheless, for the next two years, the CIA and military officials received interrogation training and direct interrogation support from JPRA trainers.

Last week, the Obama administration's top intelligence official, Dennis Blair, privately told intelligence employees that "high value information" was obtained through the harsh interrogation techniques. However, on Tuesday, in a written statement, Blair said, "The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means."

Guest


Guest
Here's what makes me wanna hurl when I read about this idiotic whitch hunt. We don't pay our pols, bureaucrats, and diplomats to maintain world standards,we pay them to maintain OUR standards. We don't pay them to make the world safe (regardless of our stated propaganda) we pay them to make the USA safe. We don't join organizations to get rules to live by,we join orgs to influence their decision making in a way that makes us safer and more prosperous. Unlike the islamist states,we have no religious maxims. Unlike the few remaining communist dictatorships,we are not locked into an economy at war with a free market. Sound cold? Too bad. Anyone who thinks that other countries instruct their pols, 'crats, and dips to "make the world better" is a compleat fool. This idiotic whitch hunt is purely political Bushbashing; manifestly stupid; and potentially catastrphically dangerous. I wish my country no ill, but if the islamist murderers now tear at our new,very soft belly with another mass murder, I won't be surprised. They did it when Clinton gutted the CIA and I don't see how Obama can kiss enough ass (no matter how good or enthusisatic at it he is) to make those murdering bastards "act nice" and refuse to do what worked so well before. Lunacy reigns in DC.

gypsy


Moderator
My opinion,>>
I think it should be investigated ,and the reason is that we have been,considered the good guys, and reverted to what we are fighting for, freedom ,the right to be called the good guys,I think the top officials involved if it includes Bush/Cheney Rove, Rumsfeld, Rice,then investigate them,all the top dogs involved in that era, whether it be dem or repubs.. I say corruption and bad politics be cleaned up,
that is part of the change, That won Obama the election
after all isn't that oneof the reasons we are in war to demostrate our democracy~ and to protect us from terroists then we should not act like one
I also think barney and Dodd should have to step down from the offices or be impeached for letting the bonus thing go through~and their involvement ,in fannie and freddie.or other dealings in the collapse
I think a committee should be appointed and all involved,prosecuted for breaking laws of the Geneva convention,on torture.and war crimes,how can we be considered a great nation if we don't abide by our own rules,most we started.
I did watch the news last night where soldiers were prosecuted ,for torture some still in prison,one, a lady who was General kaptrini (MS) was also prosecuted she told her story they were only following orders and some even went to their officers and asked to be sent somewhere else~because of what was going on in these black prisons ,but were denied
just like war criminals were tried for the holocaust.so should all involved in war crimes of this nature.and all war crimes.
9/11 occurred while Bush was on watch, he ignored all the warnings/ and documents left behind. I don't blame Bush for 9/11 and Clinton wasn't in office when it occurred~

the witch hunt the republicans did on(Clinton) was hilarious~ and a waste of time/taxes, I will say the 8 years Clinton was in office were the best times recorded, for our country.

gypsy


Moderator
also waterboarding one man 87 times in a month? to me that is a bit excessive, and reported in news casting ,unsuccessful, nothing was gained!

Guest


Guest
gypsy wrote:also waterboarding one man 87 times in a month? to me that is a bit excessive, and reported in news casting ,unsuccessful, nothing was gained!
Congratulations on your new-found ability to write coherent, properly spelled posts.

Guest


Guest
"9/11 occurred while Bush was on watch, he ignored all the warnings/ and documents left behind. I don't blame Bush for 9/11 and Clinton wasn't in office when it occurred" // Absolute crap. You just DID blame Bush for 9/11 and you always will. Blaming Bush for 9/11 is like blaming a car owner who suddenly experiences a total brake failure caused by a factory installed flawed brake system and then running over someone. The people who built the car(our intel systems,i.e., Clinton) not the driver (Bush) will always be found responsible for the tragedy in any court and you know that. But truth and justice mean nothing to the Bush-basher. Regardless of who was responsible: BUSH DID IT!

Guest


Guest
"the witch hunt the republicans did on(Clinton) was hilarious~ and a waste of time/taxes, I will say the 8 years Clinton was in office were the best times recorded, for our country." /// A sitting president that lied under oath, a federal felony, shouldn't be investigated? Prosecuted? You just don't get it and never will. THIS IS NOT ABOUT LAW-BREAKING ACTIVITIES! What laws were broken? PLEASE inform us. And don't say the "Geneva conventions". Those are not laws! Were any of our "laws" broken? Which ones? Stop spouting politically generated anti-Bush agit-prop and be specific: WHY SHOULD THERE BE AN INVESTIGATION WHEN NO LAWS WERE BROKEN? Presidential policies should never be subject to investigation unless specific criminal activity (law breaking) is ordered. None were. Clinton broke federal law and got away with it. Bush breaks no laws and is to be investigated. Yep, the Democrats are back in power alright.

gypsy


Moderator
I have always been able to write coherently,but thanks for the comment.
I disagree Bush and his administration broke many laws~ I can name them but it is public knowledge, and as you say~ I won't do your homework for you~
Thanks for the unusually nice response. also a lie` was told by clinton i agree, but so has the Bush era lied~ lets see if they are investigated if they do under oath~ long ago i stated this kind of situation would occur, as seen, i am was right~

runawayhorses


Owner
I don't know of any laws Bush broken Gypsy, could you be more specific? I think if you make a claim that someone has broken the law its only reasonable to state which law(s) were broken. But if you don't really know or are just guessing then maybe you can't say which laws were broken, but I tend to think Moon is right and that no actual laws were broken by Bush.

gypsy


Moderator
law is law, whether international or in US~according to reports i read if Bush or Cheney go into a foreign country they can be arrested, whether that is true i don't know it is only what i have read~. laws were broke by the Bush era, or why would they want an investigation~ on torture? also on rebuilding Iraq was solely done by Cheney/halliburton many laws ere broken even if they were done by politicians including the melt down and what caused it~
I think to go forward, we have to correct what happened in the past era of government, to see it doesn't happen again~ there are many articles out there that state laws were broken, if the gov okay's torture then it is a crime, to do anyone that way,any human/animal torture is against the law..Period! and closing ones eyes to this will not correct future gov officials from doing it again~ like i said the homework is there~ if one will do it~
if it was the other way around, democrat's were in control at the time of occurrence of these acts,don't you think the republicans would do the same/ investigation?

I do ,and they have~ I think lying about a sexual act is not near as bad as torturing,and other questionable acts .~ they gained no accomplishment from it~~ Shame on us, the American people~

runawayhorses


Owner
Well I'm sure everyone breaks laws everyday that only apply to other countries and not their own. Its against the law in the US to buy any amount of marijuana without a prescription from a DR, but in the Netherlands the possession/purchase of marijuana is tolerated in small amounts. You can purchase marijuana in special shops (called coffeeshops) if your age is eighteen and over. But in the US it is strictly prohibited and illegal, but tolerated in many other countries as well, including my beloved Canada..

So you can legally buy marijuana in another country and come back to the US and not have broken any laws provided you don't bring it back with you.

I'm not a lawyer, but if Bush broke a law in another country but he didn't break any of the laws in the US, then that makes him innocent and can't be tried here in the US, he's guilty of nothing becuase he didn't break any of our laws.

Guest


Guest
gypsy wrote:I have always been able to write coherently,but thanks for the comment.
I disagree Bush and his administration broke many laws~ I can name them but it is public knowledge, and as you say~ I won't do your homework for you~
Thanks for the unusually nice response. also a lie` was told by clinton i agree, but so has the Bush era lied~ lets see if they are investigated if they do under oath~ long ago i stated this kind of situation would occur, as seen, i am was right~
Homework,my ass. How can I look for something that doesn't exist? Public knowledge of what? What public? Have one of your "public" post what laws were broken, since you clearly have no idea. The Bush admin. lied? About what? He was wrong about the WMDs but you bashers MUST characterize that as a lie since your hate will accept nothing less. I posted once on IYT that half of American households had a gun in it. I was wrong,but did I lie? The actual figure turned out to be 40% but my haters insisted I was then a liar. You predicted this witch-hunt? Of course you did! Nearly everyone did when it became clear that Obama would win. The Democrats were and are out to distract the American people from what their real agenda is: The purchase and control of the American banking industry and some major manufacturers, and vast government growth. First Obama says "no investigation", then Nancy calls and it's "Well, maybe the lawyers involved", and all the Demos who OK'd the enhanced interrogations called and said "WHOA there,prez, we is ALL involved", and now it's back to "no investigations". Hilarious? You betcha. Boy, dat Obama can dance!

gypsy


Moderator
Tyler,moon i could cp/all day about laws and the investigation of torture .Cheney and bush broke, but since i said i wouldn't c/p to answer meemoon then i will not~ but as i said if no law has been broke then why are soldiers being prosecuted for orders that the bush era issued?? as i stated in my first post my opinion!
there is lot of material out there on the real news ,and of course blogs~

I believe the Bush administration were very good at distractions, first war for wmd, then saddam ,democracy, an other things.
Put fear into the people, was what that was about..
I wonder when i make a statement i am questioned, interrogated, if you will LOL do i ask anyone here why they post anything? No! ok i have voiced I am now finished with the subject~
I also did state years ago that all this would come about,before Obama was even thought of~~ Cheerio!

rosco 357


Veteran
frankly is they hold a high value target. and u know he has info on other terrorist . i dont have a problem with choping off fingers much less some water in ur face,

runawayhorses


Owner
To the contrary to rosco's viewpoint, I have a big problem with chopping off fingers or any form of torture. Its wrong, plan and simple.

rosco 357


Veteran
oh i did not mean it was right ,or legal i just would not really care if they did, or i have always if i had to shoot someone and not kill them , i would go for the knees, but actually if ur going to shoot u should not unless its shoot to kill. to protect ur life, and the fingers was actually a kinda joke for shock value, compaired to water boarding, navy seals go through much worse, anyway, i think they on tv have about wore out the waterboarding thing, i am glad it got some results thou, take care,

runawayhorses


Owner
So you are saying you approve of things that are not right or legal, and that you don't really care if "wrong" is done to people.

Interesting point of view indeed. I think our ability to have compassion for people is mankind's strongest attribute.

SSC


Admin
If the water boarding saved one life , such as the revelation of planned attacks on Los Angeles, then more power to torture. Bush has become the very scape goat of a back slidding new president. War and all that comes with it should not be a matter of public record, primarily for the safety of this country. Bush being military had a much better insight into the prices of war. Obama not willing to serve his country in any form of military hasn't got a clue the can of worms he is opening. Bush nor any under him will be prosecuted if for no other reason because of the sensitive materials that would have to be disclosed. Only a fool such as Obama would disclose our war tactics. Gypsy's hate of the republicans and unwillingness to listen to reason will leave her very mush dissilusioned in times to come.
Clinton was a great embassament to this whole country, but in Gypsy's eyes he did nothing wrong. Only her hate of Bush & Cheney fuel her rampant ignorance of the whole aspect of war.

gypsy


Moderator
since i am being questioned about unlawful torture and investigation/prosecution.can you produce a truth to waterboarding/torture saved attacks on los angles?do you know this as fact? ,my hate? where did i say that, what about your hate of democrats, and plenty of your posts against democrats, they may not be prosecuted, but i am glad it is being brought out, we should not divert to tactics we are fighting against like Bushes war andmany killed in that war innocent people~ and iraq wasn't even responsible for the 911 attack~~

Guest


Guest
gypsy wrote:Tyler,moon i could cp/all day about laws and the investigation of torture .Cheney and bush broke, but since i said i wouldn't c/p to answer meemoon then i will not~ but as i said if no law has been broke then why are soldiers being prosecuted for orders that the bush era issued?? as i stated in my first post my opinion!
there is lot of material out there on the real news ,and of course blogs~

I believe the Bush administration were very good at distractions, first war for wmd, then saddam ,democracy, an other things.
Put fear into the people, was what that was about..
I wonder when i make a statement i am questioned, interrogated, if you will LOL do i ask anyone here why they post anything? No! ok i have voiced I am now finished with the subject~
I also did state years ago that all this would come about,before Obama was even thought of~~ Cheerio!
Haw,haw,haw. You have no idea what yer talking about and cannot refer to one single law that Bush broke and it's OUR FAULT! "...soldiers being prosecuted for orders that the Bush era issued". Uh.....what? Come off it. This post proves one thing fer sher: You didn't write the post for which you got a compliment from me. Either that, or someone has written every one of your posts I've read before that and now after it. Jeezus H. Christ on a crutch.

gypsy


Moderator
beg your pardon dear sir, i wrote every word,..I also can and did quote what laws were broken,and it was torture, also the cheney /haliburton involvement in rebuilding iraq, he made billions from that scenario.illegally ..

i might add.so if you disagree with my post show where i am wrong, since you asked me to show my charges. it is all over the news~
take for instance if you broke into my house, harmed my family would i have the right to torture u~~ hell no~ so what gives Bush the right even in warfare to torture,so he is saying it is alright for america to do this, but wrong for japan,Iraq, korea hitler to do it? that is BS and you know it
we set the rules years ago with the Geneva convention,we should not break them even in war time~ created by a war monger..

Guest


Guest
gypsy wrote:beg your pardon dear sir, i wrote every word,..I also can and did quote what laws were broken,and it was torture, also the cheney /haliburton involvement in rebuilding iraq, he made billions from that scenario.illegally ..

i might add.so if you disagree with my post show where i am wrong, since you asked me to show my charges. it is all over the news~
take for instance if you broke into my house, harmed my family would i have the right to torture u~~ hell no~ so what gives Bush the right even in warfare to torture,so he is saying it is alright for america to do this, but wrong for japan,Iraq, korea hitler to do it? that is BS and you know it
we set the rules years ago with the Geneva convention,we should not break them even in war time~ created by a war monger..
Yeah, yeah, I got it.

gypsy


Moderator
What are you talking about? yon contradict me, but yet you have nothing to back it up` all you have to do is read the news, I know i have said I don't believe all the news,so don't use that as a excuse~ do your homework u told me that~ so use your own advice~~ nothing here we debate back and forth proves anything~ it is all also no one writes for me~ never have never will~

runawayhorses


Owner
I should hire a writer, I think I suck...

25 LOs Angeles Threat uncovered on Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:34 pm

SSC


Admin
[quote="gypsy"]since i am being questioned about unlawful torture and investigation/prosecution.can you produce a truth to waterboarding/torture saved attacks on los angles?do you know this as fact? ,my hate? where did i say that, what about your hate of democrats, and plenty of your posts against democrats, they may not be prosecuted, but i am glad it is being brought out, we should not divert to tactics we are fighting against like Bushes war andmany killed in that war innocent people~ and irObama's Image-Building Campaign Threatens National Security, Republicans Warn
President Obama cites the need to restore America's "moral bearings" in abolishing harsh interrogation tactics and opening the door for prosecution against those who justified them.

FOXNews.com

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 President Obama says he wants to give America's image abroad a facelift, but Republicans on Capitol Hill say they are worried it will come at the expense of national security.

The president over the past few days has warned that his country is losing its "moral bearings" and must deploy the "power of our values" to stay on the "better side of history."

He cited these reasons in abolishing the interrogation tactics outlined in Bush-era memos declassified last week and opening the door for prosecutions against the lawyers who wrote those memos.

But top Republicans warn that Obama is placing America's image abroad over its safety at home.

Michigan Rep. Pete Hoekstra, ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said former CIA chief Michael Hayden is right in saying that Obama's treatment of the interrogation programs could have a chilling effect on agents' ability to operate in the field.

"It lessens security," Hoekstra told FOXNews.com. "If you've got an intelligence community that's unwilling to take a risk and being very timid ... guess what? You don't have an intelligence community. You've got a bureaucracy."

"Investigating lawyers who did their best to give advice on how the executive branch could protect innocent Americans in the wake of 9/11 will significantly undermine our ability to prevent future terrorist attacks," said Rep. Lamar Smith, R-Texas, ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee.

Obama often talked during the campaign about how he wanted to restore America's world standing, which had suffered under the Bush administration and as a result of the Iraq war.

Indeed, Obama is far more popular overseas than was Bush -- and the new president has strived to rebuild relations with Europe and reach out his hand to Muslim nations, including those whose leaders are considered hostile to the United States.

Obama also cited a need to reclaim the "moral high ground" as he moved in January to close the controversial detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Hoekstra called the image campaign "shallow." Regarding the interrogation program, he said Obama was on one hand claiming he wanted to put that chapter behind him while on the other hand opening the door for a months-long firestorm on Capitol Hill over the issue.

The value of the harsh interrogation programs, which some lawmakers say amounted to torture, is being debated anew following the release of four memos last week.

Former Vice President Dick Cheney told FOX News earlier this week that he's asked for additional documents to be released to show the valuable information that was obtained through the interrogations.

Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair wrote a memo to employees in the wake of critical press reports saying "high value information" came from the interrogations. He urged Americans to place the CIA operations in perspective.

"Those methods, read on a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009, appear graphic and disturbing," he wrote. "I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past, but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given."

(He later issued a statement saying the techniques are not needed to keep Americans safe and that the information gleaned using them "was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means.")

But other lawmakers have long argued that such interrogation techniques hurt not only America's image but America's security.

Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., released a written statement Tuesday announcing that his Judiciary Committee would hold hearings on the interrogations, even before an internal Justice Department report is finished if necessary.

"The use of tactics described in these memos runs counter not only to basic notions of decency, but places our own prisoners of war at risk and weakens our national security," he said.

Arizona Sen. John McCain, the 2008 GOP presidential nominee who spent five years as a POW during the Vietnam War, said methods like waterboarding are torture and provide dubious results when employed.

"Most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us," he told FOX News Monday.

But he and other senators wrote to Obama Wednesday urging him not to back prosecutions of Bush lawyers.

Smith argued that the image campaign is counterproductive on both fronts.

"The reality is, as President Obama has learned over the past few weeks, blaming Americans isn't the way to repair our international image," he wrote in an e-mail to FOXNews.com. "Instead it only alienates the very people you are supposed to represent."
****************************************************************************************
He cited CIA claims that waterboarding Al Qaeda's Khalid Sheik Mohammed yielded information about a planned attack on Los Angeles and said the administration should be thanking the lawyers who drafted the interrogation memos.
***************************************************************************************
"We have to push the envelope when interrogating terrorists," Smith wrote. "We can't just expect them to give up critical information by baking them cookies."

Obama, though, insists national security never plays second fiddle on his agenda. And he has called the apparent tug-of-war between safety and ideals a "false choice."

"I wake up every day thinking about how to keep the American people safe, and I go to bed every night worrying about keeping the American people safe," Obama said Tuesday. "I've got a lot of other things on my plate ... but the thing that I consider my most profound obligation is keeping the American people safe."

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