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1 Hug a tree on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:33 pm

gypsy


Moderator
they keep us breathing..we are at the point something new is going to have to happen, to rid us of oil dependency especially foreign oil ..
pollution, global warming, harms the environment, and ecology, when that is bad ,trees and all will suffer.. didn't think i would have to explain so i added this afterwards



Last edited by gypsy on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

2 Re: Hug a tree on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:40 pm

SSC


Admin
what do trees and oil have in common..we don't burn wood for transportation

3 Re: Hug a tree on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:55 pm

gypsy


Moderator
umm don't know this was ur post on another board here


Well I am not a tree hugger I am for what ever it takes for lowering the prices .

4 Re: Hug a tree on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:59 pm

gypsy


Moderator
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/22/MN6M11SN60.DTL

5 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:08 am

SSC


Admin
Gypsy why not keep one topic on one board instead of running all over hell and creation posting confusing crap

6 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:17 am

gypsy


Moderator
why? u ask what trees have to do with oil, u mentioned u didn't hug trees on another board , and then said we don't burn wood for gas and oil,when I brought up hug a tree so we can breathe, in meaning if the ecology/environment keeps being harmed we won't have any trees so we won't need oil then for sure..it is time to find another source,than oil Rolling Eyes

7 Trees destroyed in one natural disaster on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:21 am

SSC


Admin
Salvage operations in Mississippi, Louisiana forests
By David Bennett



Even before the full scope of devastation was known, the Mississippi timber industry knew Katrina had dealt it a dirty hand: trees snapped in half, branches strewn and kindling debris waiting for a spark to turn the whole thing into an inferno. Even to a forester, the sorry scene is “almost incomprehensible,” said Kent Grizzard, a spokesman at the Mississippi Forestry Commission.

The preliminary numbers show 1.3 million acres of Mississippi commercial timber has been damaged.

“On timber damage, we look at two classifications. One is saw timber — trees that are large enough to provide lumber and building materials. We had 3.2 billion board feet of saw timber damage. That includes pine and hardwood.”

From that amount of board feet, 214,000 average-sized houses could be built.

The second category is cords (a cord typically measures 4 feet high, 4 feet wide, 8 feet long) — pulpwood. Mississippi sustained damage to 14.6 million cords of pulpwood.

“Everyone knows the dimensions of a football field. Well, you could take all the cords damaged and fill 9,700 football fields. Think about that.”

All together, the commercial value of the damaged timber is $1.3 billion.

The damage estimate also included urban forests. All told, 2.7 million trees in 181 Mississippi communities were damaged — an impact of $1.1 billion.

“Combining the commercial forest damage and the economic impact of damaged trees in urban areas equals $2.4 billion in losses.”

Katrina was no gentler to Louisiana forests. Damage from the hurricane is estimated at 3 billion board feet of timber with an estimated value of around $610 million. About 65 percent of that total is softwood with the remainder in hardwood.

“This is a hardship on the landowners, the loggers and the markets,” said Janet Tompkins with the Louisiana Forestry Association. “We’ll be dealing with the repercussions for the next 15 years or more.”

I-55 runs north/south through Louisiana. Most of the forest damage is east of I-55. The three hardest hit parishes are St. Tammany, Washington and Tangipahoa.

Paper mills in the area lost power and employees for about a week after the hurricane. Back running now, the mills are accepting wood.

“One bad part of this is most of the market was already full prior to the storm,” said Tompkins. “That’s just because of the timing. At this time of year, wood is brought in before it begins getting too wet.”

Salvage operations — and timber recovery task forces — are up and running in both states. The clock is ticking because the longer the timber is left uncollected, the more chance of degeneration and lessening value. As it has the greatest value, the priority is to pick up anything that can be salvaged as saw timber.

But even that’s not a sure thing, said Tompkins. “I’ve talked to a mill that said a lot of the salvaged wood looks fine for saw timber but it’s not. There’s a lot being culled. Once they begin milling it, it’s not holding up as saw timber.”

As a result, much of the saw timber will be devalued down to pulpwood. And prices on pulpwood are dropping.

In Louisiana, to accommodate the massive amount of salvaged timber, storage areas are being set up. Logging and trucking permits are also being expedited to try and get as much downed timber picked up as possible.

There is yet another obstacle, however. “Some people from outside the damaged areas want to go in and help cut and salvage,” said Tompkins. “But they should know there are no hotel rooms, no campgrounds, and no empty houses. That’s certainly a problem for anyone wanting to go in there and work.”

“Obviously, we want to salvage as much as possible,” said Grizzard. “A task force has banded together and consists of private forests, industries, state and federal agencies and an assortment of other people who have interests in recovering as much of this damaged timber as possible. The force is currently developing the strategy of how to go about that.

“Debris removal is another aspect of this. All the debris must be collected and moved out of communities in a safe manner.”

How long before the forests could be back in shape?

“It’s too early for me to say,” said Grizzard. “This hurricane has replaced everything else in the record books. Look back at Hurricane Ivan last year. It was very destructive but nothing close to Katrina. A year after Ivan, Alabama is still dealing with salvage and debris issues. So Mississippi will be in the recovery business for at least several years.

“We had an ice storm back in 1994 — a broad disaster that affected 26 counties in north Mississippi. We were involved with the effects of that for three years. I imagine this hurricane will take longer to deal with.”

Although company land was hit, too, the majority of the forests hurt in Louisiana are on private land. For the landowners who had their savings account “on the stump, we’ll have to show them it’s worthwhile to go back in, clear the land and begin planting again,” said Tompkins.

“In Louisiana, we haven’t had a bad hurricane in a while. We have had tornados. The hurricane damage I’ve seen isn’t as twisted as when a tornado comes through…There is a variety of damage. Many trees are broken off. The larger trees sustained the most damage along with plantations that were recently thinned. The younger plantations that haven’t been thinned made out a little better.”

One of the biggest priorities will be to get the land reforested, said Tompkins. In the short-term, “we’ll have a glut of wood on the market. But then, for the next 15 years, we’ll be nurturing another crop of trees.”

On top of all the cleanup issues, both states now face a significant wildfire threat. Grizzard said the debris in the woods is a spark away from catastrophe.

“We’re very concerned about people burning debris piles. That could allow fire to jump into the woods. There are burn bans in 30 Mississippi counties — most in the south. The burn ban has been driven by debris and dry weather conditions. The hurricane-supplied fuel — limbs and broken trees — is thick.

“We’ve got veteran foresters who’ve never seen such forest fuel out there…Many folks don’t seem to understand how serious this threat is.”


For more information visit the following Web sites: www.msforestry.net, www.mfc.state.ms.us, www.laforestry.com

This is just one storm and not a real current estimate.
I didn't say for gas and oil...I said we don't burn wood for transportation....Get your quotes right

8 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:33 am

gypsy


Moderator
I never said they anything in common,but if we keep destroying the environment we will wish we hugged one of those trees~ no matter how much oil/gas we have, if we have no oxygen to breath what good will oil do?

9 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:15 am

SSC


Admin
Well if you want to save trees then start at home , use no wood products, no paper, no paper grocery bags , no mulch, no landscaping timbers, paper towels , toilet paper, the list of consumer use of wood by-products is endless. I think this whole thing was your way to get in a dig about foreign oil to prove some god knows what point.

10 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:23 am

SSC


Admin
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Science 16 November 2007:
Vol. 318. no. 5853, p. 1107
DOI: 10.1126/science.1148913
Prev | Table of Contents | Next

Brevia
Hurricane Katrina's Carbon Footprint on U.S. Gulf Coast Forests
Jeffrey Q. Chambers,1* Jeremy I. Fisher,1,2 Hongcheng Zeng,1 Elise L. Chapman,1 David B. Baker,1 George C. Hurtt2
Hurricane Katrina's impact on U.S. Gulf Coast forests was quantified by linking ecological field studies, Landsat and Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) image analyses, and empirically based models. Within areas affected by relatively constant wind speed, tree mortality and damage exhibited strong species-controlled gradients. Spatially explicit forest disturbance maps coupled with extrapolation models predicted mortality and severe structural damage to ~320 million large trees totaling 105 teragrams of carbon, representing 50 to 140% of the net annual U.S. forest tree carbon sink. Changes in disturbance regimes from increased storm activity expected under a warming climate will reduce forest biomass stocks, increase ecosystem respiration, and may represent an important positive feedback mechanism to elevated atmospheric carbon dioxide.

1 Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, Tulane University, 400 Lindy Boggs, New Orleans, LA 70118, USA.
2 Institute for the Study of Earth, Oceans, and Space, University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH 03824, USA

11 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:38 pm

gypsy


Moderator
yes the point is not to depend on foreign oil ,or oil at all, but that probably want be in our lifetime~

12 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:45 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
gypsy wrote:I never said they anything in common,but if we keep destroying the environment we will wish we hugged one of those trees~ no matter how much oil/gas we have, if we have no oxygen to breath what good will oil do?
gee u take things to far and serious, i dont think we have a tree shortage, they harvest trees then replant, and there will be no real alternative to oil in any of our life times, now obama is going to agree to off shore drilling, along with other things as was just on the national news, ,, i still got plenty of trees to be cut from my yard, ,, u act like the sky is falling and it is not, have u seen chinas polution, they harvest trees close to my house, but they replant and in like 3 years u cant tell, that is such a sillly statement about if we have no oxygen, to breath where do u get this crap, have u been up in a plane and seen all the forest compaired to citys,



Last edited by rosco 357 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

13 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:46 pm

SSC


Admin
If we are not to depend on foreign oil, then either start drilling within the US soil or crank up some rigs that are closed off shore, there are over 3,500 oil rigs off the coast from Texas to the Alabama coast, supplying 1/4 to 1/2 the oil consumed in the US, of those over 1/4 are not in production at this time. What is the problem ? Crank them up they are already constructed , thus no delay in locating oil.

14 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:51 pm

gypsy


Moderator
I hugged an oak tree today, thanking it for my oxgen, tomorrow,,umm I think a birch.. I also talked to my roses today, they are struggling a bit, wanted to reassure them~~ also talk to my canaries..they just tweeped and sing to me~~

15 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:54 pm

gypsy


Moderator
rosco it is serious, at the rate trees are being cut, rainforest being destroyed, there will one day be a problem, why not start now to solve it. like the Gov't should have started long ago on the oil problems.. get the picture? Rolling Eyes

rosco do u think a tree is mature in 3 years?? it takes at least 10 for an oak or some other large trees to fully mature~

16 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:03 pm

SSC


Admin
Glad you are out hugging trees , I had 3 oaks cut out my yard today, they were to close to my house and had a lean to then . If we catch a storm they would be on top my house, not going thru that again.Edouard has kicked up just enough wind here we have trees coming down and the storm is a baby poof heading west.
Since you are so into trees then you must be against the production of a corn based fuel, as this is taking a huge toll on trees in the mid-west .

17 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:08 pm

gypsy


Moderator
not exactly against it~ but hate to see those trees go and the wildlife having no hedgerows to hide in~
we had to cut two maples this spring because they were deseased, they were probably 50 years old
progress does have its downside~ but for people to survive i guess we have to try to find solutions ..also lets say I rather see our farmers make the money, than the foreign countries and the rich oil companies get it~



Last edited by gypsy on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

18 An example why ethanol will not work on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:14 pm

SSC


Admin
Ethanol Fuel from Corn Faulted as ‘Unsustainable Subsidized Food Burning’
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

Mr. Pimentel concluded that "abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuels amounts to unsustainable subsidized food burning".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Neither increases in government subsidies to corn-based ethanol fuel nor hikes in the price of petroleum can overcome what Cornell University agricultural scientist, David Pimentel, calls a fundamental input-yield problem: It takes more energy to make ethanol from grain than the combustion of ethanol produces.

At a time when ethanol-gasoline mixtures (gasohol) are touted as the American answer to fossil fuel shortages by corn producers, food processors and some lawmakers, Cornell’s David Pimentel, one of the world’s leading experts in issues relating to energy and agriculture, takes a longer range view.

"Abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuel amounts to unsustainable, subsidized food burning", says the Cornell professor in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Pimentel, who chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of ethanol production several years ago, subsequently conducted a detailed analysis of the corn-to-car fuel process. His findings are published in the September, 2001 issue of the Encyclopedia of Physical Sciences and Technology .

Among his findings are:
An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel’s analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.
The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.
Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way", Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU".
Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can’t afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn’t afford it, either, if it weren’t for government subsidies to artificially lower the price".
Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol".
The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace".
Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile:
The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans.
If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.


http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.html

19 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:20 pm

gypsy


Moderator
well at least something else is being tried, always errors, and downsides as i said, but the oil thing is not over, it will haUNT US FOR YEARS~ I HOPE SOME GENIUS COMES UP WITH A QUICK SOLUTION` IT IS OUT THERE, BUT THE OIL COMPANIES DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN AND UR BIG OIL MAGNATES DON'T EITHER~ SORRY for caps lol` don't feel like typing it over~

20 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:30 pm

SSC


Admin
I agree the big oil companies don't want solutions , their quarterly earnings have shown just what a profit is being made from oil. My gripe is oil is available right here close to home , thus cutting back the need to support foreign oil and there resorces are not being used.

21 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:45 pm

gypsy


Moderator
I agree to a degree, i am all far drilling here, if it does not damage the areas, I did a lot of reading today, i agree somewhat..

tell the mid east to kiss it and use what we got, but i think i read it would be 6/10 years before we saw any of that oil drilled from here in the states~

22 just what is alternatives, on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:51 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
this is not a paste just me, alternatives, mainly will consist of cars that run on hydrogen, or battery based power, and maybe other things, they may come, but if oil goes back down , it willl be like when the oil embargo was, when oil went back down all that alternative fuel stuff went out the window. ok i think car companies or in a hurry this time to get to market gas alternative cars,because that is all that is really selling, but if u dont buy one ur one of the problems, everyone should buy one, but be prepaired to pay big bucks for the real alternative cars, they will not be cheep, so start saving, or ur the problem, nad ur killing the enviroment, so get ready to trade, actually the best thing right now, say everyone buys a car like i did that gets twice the millage, well guess what, oil consumption for gas is cut in half, so when u see ppl not driving fuel effecint car, that person is one of the problem, , what im saying is, dont preach alternatives if ur not willing to face the music, and bit the bullet. one thing, right now, some fuel hybrid cars use more gas than a good fuel efficent small car, look at the ford escape hybrid, i think it is, the gas milage it gets, its not that good,,just if ur going to preach be ready to spend some money, or hush..



Last edited by rosco 357 on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

23 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:57 pm

gypsy


Moderator
rosco Razz :!:and please don't tell me to hush~it doesn't work, maybe take ur own advice

24 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:08 pm

rosco 357


Veteran
gypsy wrote:rosco Razz :!:and please don't tell me to hush~it doesn't work, maybe take ur own advice

who said im talking to u, im talking to everyone, just the plain truth, what do u think the alternative cars will be given away, free, they will cost bucks, it sickens me to see ppl preach things and not drive cars that get good millage, they are the problem,, and be ready to spend some money, ppl say dont drill , use alernative cars, which is find and dandy, just be prepaired to put out some bucks, or ur the problem, maybe u cant but ur still the problem, why call for alternative cars if ur not prepaired to buy one, ???????????or ur just pissing in the wind,

25 Re: Hug a tree on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:16 pm

gypsy


Moderator
how do u know i haven't bought one? u posted on my post so i figured the hush was meant for me~ and so right back to u..I can't put out what? Money?? pissing in the wind>>
take care and cowboy up!!

26 Re: Hug a tree Today at 11:08 pm

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